The brutal attack on two Polish lads who died in the hospital is the most clear example of the “dead end” of changes in Irish society. I don’t know what was the picture of the Irish society 10 or even 5 years ago, but the newspapers provide me the information about the scale of changes and the growing crime and brutality among the Irish society, especially teenagers. According to the Irish Independent (Tuesday 4 March 2008) knife crime in Ireland had risen 300pc in four years. The scale and the brutality of the crimes and attacks committed by the Irish teenagers is also horrifying. All the suspects involved in the attack on two Polish lads are in the age of 14, 15, 17 and 19. They youngest o them – 14 years old girl was arrested couple of days ago. The other four teenagers were held by Gardai being involved in a murder of 21 year old man near Grand Canal in Dublin. I remember many such stories that were described in the Irish newspapers in the last 2 years.
The nationality of those two Polish lads had probably nothing to do with the reason of the attack. There was probably no reason at all. The young thugs were just looking for trouble and looking for the target. How many thugs like the ones who killed my two compatriots are still walking down the streets of Irish cities and towns? According to the all crime reports that were published in the newspapers in the last two years I dare say there is many of them.
How many of the decent people – Irish, Polish, Lithuanian, English or other nations – have to be killed by young thugs to open the eyes of the Irish society, Gardai and the politics?
Some of the readers of my blog are cross with me becasue of my opinions (that are critical sometimes) about Ireland and Irish people that I present on my blog. Many of them always complains on my compatriots. It is true – we are far from perfect, and there is many Polish troublemakers in Ireland for sure. You can believe or not in the stupid rumors that we hunt swans etc (swans are not in Polish menu), you can accuse us of making troubles, taking your jobs etc. but why many of Irish turn the blind eye on the growing problem of crime and brutality in their own society, or maybe the 300pc rise of the knife crime is also our Polish fault? The crime among the teenagers is really big problem. Can you imagine that those teenage thugs will be adults one day?
By the way, in the same issue of Irish Independent there is more crime stories: one is about 27 years old man who killed his girlfriend and another story is about two mothers who hid cocaine in the childs’ buggy and about the shootings in Limerick.
Have you seen the great film “Boondock Saints”? Do you remember the first scene in the church and the homily of the priest?
“Of course we must fear evil men, but there is another evil that we must fear more… and that is the indifference of good men.”
There are far too many Poles in Ireland, they are stealing jobs and they are adding to the crime. The rise in knife crime corresponds with the influx of Eastern European immigrants to these shores, many Polish carry knives, batons etc and they are involved in drunken fights on a nightly basis.
It’s also wrong of you to say that we Irish give out about the Poles but not about Irish crime, immigrants are adding to the crime rate and so that’s why immigrants get such a frequent mention.
There are 200,000 - 250,000 Poles in Ireland, the jobs are gone now, you’ve bled the country dry, so it’s time you went somewhere else to continue your parasitic behaviour.
Ha ha ha
P.Smith 
learn the history of your own nation 
about the emmigration or immigration which you call parasitic behaviour. Following your point of view - you are the same parasite as I am.
Stealing jobs? Answer me why archaeological companies employ people from almost all of the world. akhm… there is not enough archaeologists in Ireland or maybe we just kill them to keep the job for us?
Who is the employers of Polish people. Chineese? No, Spanish? No… hmm… Irish… yes.
FYI. The only time when we can say about cutting jobs becasue of the Eastern Europe is when the factories are moving there. The only example I know is Procter and Gamble from Nenagh.
I haven’t said that we are not adding to the crime. It is obvious that we do, but look into the crime reports in the newspapers. 90% of them is commited by Irish, not by Polish. Teenagers gangs, shotguns, pistols and knives.
And as for the jobs? Why I still get a jobs offers? Why all my Irish friends have their jobs?
and finally
P.Smith, are you joking me?
Every single word you wrote here is far far away from the truth.
How can you say that we are stealing your jobs? Everyone has the same right to apply for the job, but if your qualfications are not good enough…sorry, it is not Poles fault.
Crimes, I am reading irish newspapers every single day and I must say that majority of the crimes are commited by irish teenagers, so please don’t give a s**t. Sad but true.
To P Smith, having worked in Irish archaeology and being lucky enough to consider Mackozer a.k.a Krystian to be a friend of mine, I can only say that I feel sorry for him that he would have to descend to such a low level in his mind to dignify your ignorance with a response.
P Smith you imbecile, get a life or you get out of Ireland you Amadán.
Psmith, I was thinking, I guess that you are one of the infamous irish “scumbags”, as far as I know irish society is calling you and your other scummy friends a parasites.
do you really think that the job will come to you? you know what, it’s funny, you should thank all poles and others, because of us, irish goverment can pay unemployement benefit to people like you.
Just to point out as well Mr P Smith, your family name came to Ireland with the English and Scottish planters who settled in Ulster and also with the Cromwellian soldiers who came to Ireland in the mid 17th century. Your ancestors were racists murderers who have forever voided any entitlement you may think you have to call yourself Irish. Go learn some History! it was your ancestors who were the parasites Ulster man.
Eddie
I concur 100% with your post MacKozer but even before net migration became a reality on this island, alot of people were making similar points. There has always been an inherent level of brutality in Irish society, alot of violence occurred in the school system for example which while I’m not a fan of the rod and the cane or corporal punishment in general, might begin to explain some of the issues here.
Nihilistic violence is now commonplace, it’s also common in the UK and in fact in any major Western urban connurbation… It’s not simply an Irish thing but more a reflection of breakdown in the family, the lack of responsibility taken by parents for the education, safeguarding and discipline of their children. Indeed, perhaps a disastrous mix of just enough liberalism to rid our schools and education systems of the fear of authority and just enough capitalism to take the desire to care and guide their children away from their parents and the results of this is what we are now seeing.
Kids are left to wander suburbia at all hours of the evening because there are zero facilities provided in the home (Irish people have the lowest square metre allowance per capita in the EU in their homes) and zero facilities / amenities provided by the State.
There is no simple fix and it’s not an Irish problem.
But we are certainly seeing an increasingly vicious strain of the disease affecting Western capitalist countries affecting this country.
I have no answers except lots of hard work.
Hi Tug,
Bravo on the comment, I have tried in my own way to explain where this inherent violence comes from on my own blog, do you believe that its a throw back to failures of older irish institutions? i.e the breakdown of the church, older school system e.t.c how did this apathy or nihilism as you put it creep in to us?
Personally i think it has a lot to do with the media, all the tabloids thrive on misery these days and the less independant minded of us seem to propogate those human misery storys in the society they believe we live in.
The apathy comes from a lack of empathy. I wouldn’t blame older institutions because as I alluded to in my original reply, they were just as destructive in their own ways.
Basically, we have created a situation whereby the disconnection that people feel from each other is now accompanied by a reckless disregard for their rights to go peaceably about their business. The fear of a parent, seems entirely devoid from these kids and they have lost all respect for their community, probably because they feel that their community lost all respect for them along time ago…
How we put these pieces together correctly, if it indeed is possible, is not clear. I don’t think it’s ever happened to date.
What used to go on behind closed doors now happens out on the street and is increasingly indiscriminant, which is what probably frightens people most.
i think your article is a bit alarmist, for example the rate of knife crimes may have gone up 300% but what is the actual number of attacks?i would say it is still preportionatly lower than most other western countries eg. uk or france
also you talk of irish people believing all sorts of rumours and being racist against poles as the norm, it is a tiny minority that exists in all countries including your own. for example i dont know a single person racsist against poles and if they are they hide it for fear of being laughed at.i have never heard a single nasty rumour against poles and am friends with a few polish.
The gap between the rich and the poor in Ireland is the second highest in Europe (17% supposedly)that surely is our strongest disconnection, whos to blame for that? I dont believe in Nihilism.
Have you ever looked in to Catharism by the way?, it seems to me to have a lot of the answers.
That’s an interesting one Eddie, I’m amazed that you have a difficulty with nihilism if you can accept catharism!!!
Anyhoo, I’m a mixture of a socialist and an existentialist, so…
wat a load of marbles stealing jobs .r all we irish still persumed 2 b stupid or is it the small minority that is still crying .the fist thing these crybabys hav 2 get is an alarm clock .an dont 4get 2 set it thats wat there there 4. stop the whinging .as 4 stealing jobs who owns guinness that isnt even owned by the irish ascon that builds our road an many more google yahoo even the mobile in your hand i bet that isnt irish either .2 b competitive in an open an fair market we need multicultures as 4 the crybabys even our hurleys r polish aran jumpers the wool come from australia donegal catch is caught of our shores an then shipped 2 coventry .r these moaners lookin around an actually watching what really is happening .get out there an sell urself thats wat u hav 2 do if you want 2 get a job .the day of its not who u know r gone .
sorry didnt finish the above didnt we always hav a criminaal element in ireland but we r famous 4 blaming som1 else .there is violence in every country on this planet som of these people blaming this an that im askin myself r they on this planet or on pluto get real crime is here 2 stay its not goin 2 go away
Tug,
Catharism has little in common with Nihilism, I believe you are referring to the Catholic perspective, besides I said nothing about “accepting” Catharism
Well most of the Polish people I have met are over qualified for the jobs they are in.
Irish people had to search the world for work for hundreds of years.
I welcome the new Europeans.
We don’t do so bad ourselves when it comes to priests raping children and the violence which went on in our “Approved ” schools.
Not to mention the IRA and Shankill butchers.
Or firebombing young children asleep in their beds.
Time to get your head together.
If you have no job re train.
Well, it was a new one on me and it does seem to be couched in the religious unless you want to offer up a link that might educate!!!
P Smith!! Are you serious??? Take a look at our history before you call Poles parasites. There seems to be a trend that the Poles who come here are manly WELL OVER QUALIFIED for the jobs they are doing. This is a sad realistic fact. There are jobs available outr there for EVERYONE! You must be one of these people who has no qualifications what-so-ever and you seem as if you are waiting for work to come to you. Without the work of these people half of our modern buildings wouldnt exist (they are building our country up at an amazing rate) because people like you would just be sitting around claiming benefits (that are coming out of Poles pay) and complaining like a baby that there is no work. I hear this shit all the time yet I or any of my friends never have any problem finding work.
Oran, maybe you dont know any of these racist people but I think P Smith has just proved that they do exist. My boyfriend is Polish and we have been turned away from clubs and pubs on regular ocassions and when we have questioned it we have been told “no poles aloud”. My Boyfriend isnt a trouble riser but he doesnt let people treat him like he’s scum and this usually leads to him getting into trouble when it wasnt his fault. I know the bigger man alwasy walks away…but its impossible to walk away ALL of the time….especially when you have young thugs that get away with making EVERYONE’S life a misery ( such as the thugs who brutally murdered Pawel and Marius)
Crime and racism in Ireland are on the rise and there is no doubt about that. This was an obvious trend before the Polish got here and and the rate thinds are going it seems they will be on the rise even after the Poles leave. We can’t continue to blame others for our problems. Its about time we took responsibility and done something about it once and for all.
Hi Tug,
Not sure if ur referring to a link on Catharism or not but Wikipedia is a good source, its an important research avenue not least as an insight in to the Catholic condition. Of course the church is marginally culpable for modern Ireland for doing nothing about the “stick it in your arse pocket and say nothing” Irish condition. I wish thugs were more thoughtful about their perceived enemy, the know nothing Mercedes and BMW crowd i hope are soon to be the ones cruising for a brusing. Fuck em, viva ClockWork Orange.
Hi
I have found your blog recently - looking fro my hubby`s aunt - Gonne Carmichael - and for Irish language courses in West Belfast. For some funny reason google decided your blog is a match …huh? Anyway - seen you were visiting Belfast - dont know exactly when but it must have been before the July marching season. You post about the Shankill Road and the large dumping ground on it - about you wonder why is it there - and that it is not a pretty sight - that place on the Shankill was - at that time their bonfire square - where the inhabitants collected pallets - old furniture etc. to pile them up to a biiiig bonfire - and burn it on the night of 11th of July. About the flags - beeing torn and looks like nobody cares for them - that is true - but while on the Falls and everywhere else in republican areas the flags are cared for by Sinn Fein - on the loyalist areas it is done by the people - meaning the paramilitaries go and collect money from them for the flags once a year. Happened that they collected money froma Chinese Family for an English Flag in the morning -and they burned them out in the evening… Well that was of course before devolution LOL
I am sorry if my post is totally off the rails ….. or too late….
hmmmm…..keep up the good work
Come on boys and girls.
Big hugs time to work together.
Happy St.Patricks day.
It’s amazing how people can twist the facts to make a story look better from their own side…
Lets take the 300% rise in knife attacks over the last few years… Yes Irish society has an increasing level of crime and especially by teenagers… but if you want the real figures deaths by stabbing hit 36 in 2007 so a rise of 300% represents an increase from 12 to 36 in three years… yes the percentage is scary but the numbers represent some of the lowest in the world… and if you want to put those numbers in perspective there were 8 stabbings at football matches alone in Poland in 2004, there were 12 stabbing in total in Ireland in 2004…
and if 90% of crime in Ireland is caused by Irish nationals then that means 10% is caused by Foreign Nationals… if you want to put that into a percentage thats 10% of crime committed by only 6% of the population… And if you want an even grosser figure 20% of car accidents are being caused by the same 6% population…
But don’t get me wrong i’m not here to blame Irish or foreigners but blogs like this one and some of the comments are the reason there is rising tension between comunities… Lets face it this attack could have happened to anyone… if the two men had been chinese or english or Irish would any of these articles or comments be here…?
I doubt it… This crime was an embarasment to Ireland and i think the massive outpouring of outrage, the huge donations to the families, the massive turnout of Irish people at the rememberance service is testament to the fact that the author of this blog has chosen to ignore what the majority of Irish people have to say about the issue and has published misleading figures in order to paint an ugly picture of Ireland as a land full of racist murderers who show nothing but hate towards the poles…
Get to grips with reality people its time to come together… and i mean that from both sides… there are many Irish out there who need to open up and be more accepting of those who have only recently landed on these shores but similarly those who are new to Ireland need to to get out and get involved in society, meet new people and become part of this society. You dont have to forget who you are but you do need to be more open to Irish life.
And i know many Irish say “But i am open…” but are you really..? when was the last time you had a Polish guy around to your house for dinner or a beer..? probably never…
And similarly i’m sure many Polish will say “I do get involved in society” but ask yourself what language do you speak mostly, do you tend to socialise with your polish friends at home or do you go to the local..? are you a member of the local soccer/rugby/GAA club..?
Lets be honest Ireland is a relitivly safe, open and freindly place to live and i’m sure those Poles who have lived in other countries will testify to that… I’m not denying that Irelands crime is growing and i really hope it gets tackled properly but if you want to talk statistics then Ireland is one of the safest countries in the world..
So lets not let the actions of a few spur on the writing of one sided articles which do nothing but encourage hate, prejudice and remorse… These articles will only push our two comunities apart and promote mistrust between the two peoples…
This island has suffered enough because of a hate and mistrust between two peoples… We are finally emerging from a century of hate and bloodshed lets not repeat our mistakes and fall back into bad times… lets come together both sides and just get to know each other…
Maybe even go for a beer down the local together…
While murders are increasing, they are still low compared to the rest of Europe, and they are increasing from a extremely low level (just 3 murders in 1960, and 11 in 1971 for e.g.).
And yet if you turn on the radio, you hear the same old rubbish that it’s poverty and lack of investment and opportunity!!! Poverty/lack of investment compared to 1960!!!
And as for the cane and belt in school “brutalising” kids, funnily enough they’re far more brutalised now there is no cane and belt.
They should throw the book at those criminal scumbags. Look at that girl in laytown? Getting a knife and killing another girl = 4 years!! FOUR!! And reduced sentences for having some bleeding heart story. Lots of people have hard lives but it doesn’t give them an excuse to make someone elses life hell.
And in the 60s and 70s, the Church wasn’t perfect but at least it taught people Right and Wrong. So one can hope that the Poles will revitalise the Church here.
Nice, Happy belated Paddys to you too
Twisted facts: what is amazing is the fact of completely missed comparasion you suggest. You mentioned about 8 stabbings at the football matches in Poland in 2004. Let me inform you… that football matches are on the stadiums, not on the streets. More over…, you seem to forget about the proportions… There is more than 38 million citizens in Poland compared to 4 200 000 in Ireland (including emigrants). It is a bit different, don’t you think?
and I haven’t said that Ireland is completely unsafe place. It is relatively safe, however the crime is rising and saying only that Ireland is relatively safe won’t stop it.
My article is dedicated mostly to Irishmen and English language speakers. I have other - Polish - blog about Ireland where I am not calling my compatriots not to trust Irish but very often annoying my compatriots pointing out all the dark sides of our emigrant community.
It is better to talk, than not to talk about tough things.
Mick: I agree with you. However I am not sure about the revitalisation of the Church by Polish community. Church in Poland is involved in pedophilia, politics, atisemitism and people are starting to be fed up with the same old song sung by the priests.
To Mick from Birr,
The Church in Ireland is part of the problem not the solution, funny that you should mention bleeding heart stories, more often than not those stories involve abuse by priests! with the exception of a few radical thinking good priests, the church has huge culpability for keeping Ireland backward and Ignorant of “outsiders” and alternative culture. With the help of God they will never have the stranglehold they once had on ordinary people. As for teaching the difference between right and wrong thats just twisted.
Hi,
Listen i have no problem at all with anyone coming to work here - I think its great! I love learning about new cultures, and enjoy the multicultural country Ireland is becoming.
What I do have problem with however, is the amount of complaining immigrants do while they are here… It leaves me asking Why the hell are you here and why don’t you go home if its that bad?
Unusual brutal crime happens in EVERY country. The expansion of the media means we hear more than we used to. I bet if I did my research I could find equally ehinous crimes commited in Poland.
You need to relax and enjoy living in our country and drop the pessimism and BS that I read on here. Or you need to go home. No-one is forcing you to stay and you are making our lovely country out to be a hell hole.
I have lived my whole life in Dublin, I have never been mugged, attacked or conned, I have never been robbed, I have never been assaulted, I know ONE person who has been beaten up for no reason and guess what? It was a central/eastern european who did it.
Just relax and realise that Ireland is a modern country making its way like every other. You should be thankful that it is offering you a slice of its tiger pie….If you don’t like it, you should leave it. From the sounds of it, it isn’t suiting you.
Also Twisted Facts? The comment about having a polish guy around for dinner? What the hell was that - the most patronising pondering I’ve ever read. “Hi are you polish? Oh you are…eh do you want to come to dinner?”
The point I’d like to make on that, is that any polish or EE I’ve ever worked with have not made a single effort to mix or mingle with any of the rest of the office, they spoke polish to one another in the canteen and at do’s which ostracises everyone else. Its up to them to fit in and mix in, not us to patronise them.
Look its time for a change of subject, unless you want this blog to desnd into a farce.
We all know the horror of what happened in Crumlin.
This could have taken place in Rio or Berlin, or even Sydney,
Mindless violence,
Lets not be sucked into the abyss.
Yup, sure we’ll just brush it under the carpet like usual John!
Society in general over here is getting more violent. An ‘underclass’ has developed. 10 years ago you’d have similar gangs, but they would have been much less likely to carry knives. The reality is that these thugs will look for any reason to choose a person as prey, doesn’t matter where you’re from or what you look like, as long as you’re different to them in some way.
In my eyes, if you’re working, you’re contributing. I think it’s justifiable to worry about the economy, but not to use Polish workers as a scapegoat. The reason why there are Irish names all around the world - we’ve gone to other countries looking for work, and for the chance of a better life. Besides, how many Dependants - retired people, pensioners, etc - are living abroad? What would it do to the economy to bring them all back?
I think the Irish need to search deeper as do most people’s and their societies to find the reasons and answers for social problems. Although violence is growing in most countries, it is not a problem devoid of good solution and policy.
The drinking culture is one element that increases violent crime, a too often resort to the use of violence to solve our issues be they historical, political or social is another. I’m proud to be a “fight’n Irishman”, but have the maturity and small wisdom to see one must always fight in a non-violent fashion. This mantra is not heard enough in Irish society or history.
I feel Irish society has become drunken in its stupor of new found wealth, an almost unavoidable dilemma considering how poor we once were. But as the more sober and impending years arise we should reflect and dispense with mere material pursuits and tackle issues such as Infrastructure, Sectarian mentalities, Alcoholism, Racism, Corruption, Conservatism, Classism and create the foundations for a society that is truly multicultural and socially progressive while most countries are beginning to ponder if such a society is ever really attainable.
And how do you start with this unobtainable Euthopia? You show your ethnic and foreign neighbours how much you really appreciate them, and you chastise those who do not. It is easy for a man to change the world…you just walk down the street and change it!
You know you are absoloutely right Krystian, the “ghetto walls” are far to high now for Polish people to ever be a part of Irish society, i have seen the proof
Tis shockin bout the poor Polish
he he
I know this is off topic http://www.lesliegilmour.com/index/2008/05/13/aer-lingus-rip-off/ it is about Aer Lingus and their new rip off policy with seat bookings - I thought it relevant here on your blog.
please don’t forget how the irish were looked upon during the first waves of immigration to the states, or the uk!
they were “stupid, dirty drunks who fought all of the time.”
here’s some cartoons depicting the irish reputation::
early days
today
Well that looks like you have your final word on this.
It was tragic that two Polish men were stabbed to death in Crumlin.
Does this mean that Crumilin is a Ghetto full of vigilanties, I think not, but you have started up a racist fury ant then walked away from the facts.
The scumbags who carried out this act were drugged fueled thugs.
Under age and out of control.It could have been me or you who got stabbed, race had nothing to do with it.
The local people were totally behind the Polish people when this happened, there was a large mass held at the place and in the church.
There were many Irish people at the service.
I am also sure that there was a collection made to help with the funeral costs.
I saw a programme on TV with Ross Kemp exploring gangs, one section dealt with Polish gangs who seek out Foreign workers and give them a hiding,I hardly for a moment think this is typical of Polish people.
Though you deny that the Irish are open and friendly and imply the opposite.
Polish people have been welcomed with open arms, you got the same wages and holidays as we get.The majority of the Polish people accept that we are a fair people to work with.
Well its not OK with me that you twist facts and present the Irish as some kind of neo Natzi race, sure we have our nut cases.
But don’t paint verbal Swastikas on my door and walk away.
I don’t think anyone has the right to spread the idea that we as a nation are like the youths who killed your Polish friends.
Just as I would never presume that the Polish people are SS type killers.