Paddy In Poland has drawn my attention to the interesting news on Thenews.pl about one Polish emigrant who addressed the need of making the Polish language the 3rd official language of Ireland (link). The guy who’s name is Marcin Wrona said that: “We are the most numerous ethnic group, hence we should be granted more rights, like, for instance, the right to use our mother tongue in offices“.
What can I say. Only that I can not believe in such stupidity. I would like to admonish him that we - Poles - are more or less long term but temporary emigrants. In next 10 years most of us would be living in Poland or somewhere else, but probably not Ireland. In that case demanding more rights - having in fact almost the same right like Irish - is completely lack of understanding the situation. His demands are completely childish, and should be regarded in that way. I don’t expect Poblacht na hEirean to introduce Polish language as a 3rd official. The cost of that would be enormous - translating all of the official statements, all of the official signs etc. and for only temporary period of roughly 10 years? Of course many of us will stay in Ireland for longer period or forever. Those who want to stay have to speak English and to integrate into Irish society. Of course they will never be Irish, but I mean to be part of one multicultural Irish society and not to be behind of the wall of ghetto.
Most of readers of my blog - both Irish and Polish - know well that majority of Poles in Ireland is living behind the ghetto wall built of lack of knowledge of English among Poles, that gives lack of communication with the Irish, and further - indolence of many of them to learn English, since at present almost everything in Ireland is translated to Polish already. In fact - Poles in Ireland don’t have to speak English at all, because all information is available in Polish. Majority of Poles in Ireland mentally is still in Poland, they are in Ireland only 8 hours a day at work. After that they are back in Poland, in Polish shops, in their homes - where everybody speaks Polish, where they have Polish satellite TV and Polish internet. I don’t blame them, since - as I wrote before - they are going to stay not for long, and… the situation makes them lazy - it is enough to speak Polish in Ireland, so they don’t need to learn English. However this is a ghetto. There are some negative stereotypes about Polish among the Irish, there are also growing slowly negative attitude to Poles among the Irish. Sitting behind the wall of Polish ghetto, which now is strengthen by those negative stereotypes and attitude of some Irish won’t make any good. Mental ghetto with walls built of Polish language will make a big harm to Polish emigrants in Ireland sooner or later.
The attitude of that man - Marcin Wrona - is a clearly example of the attitude “when somebody is giving you a finger you want to get a whole arm”. I am very sorry for him, his lack of understanding real needs of Polish society that are education in English language and destroying the walls of Polish ghetto rather than building these walls higher and higher and making a 2nd Poland behind them.
I will never be Irish and I will always be Polish, but in Ireland I am Polish member of Irish society, a man who communicates in English, who reads Irish newspapers, who is interested in all the aspects of life in Ireland.
I am completely against the ideas of Marcin Wrona. In Ireland we should be able to speak at least English. I say NO to any attempts to rise the walls of Polish ghetto.
and I hope that I am not the only one Polish person who is against Polish ghetto (or 2nd Poland) in Ireland.
Totally agree. The most ridiculous idea I’ve ever heard. I’m on completely opposite side and I’d like to see English tests for Poles staying in Ireland for more than 3 months.
I am also a non-national living and working in Ireland. Whilst I believe that the Polish community is not only substancial in numbers but also influential from a political viewpoint, I am of the firm belief that changing a country’s official language list would be a drastic measure. Irish as a language exists for reasons of culture identity and heritage more than as a necessity, English is the most widely spoken language in Ireland, by making these two languages the official languages of Ireland the government preserves cultural identity and heritage whilst remaining competitive in a global market. Making Polish the third official language would serve no real purpose, one can quite competently conduct his or her affairs in Polish already without changing legislation. It is for this reason that I don’t believe that English tests be compulsory either. Whilst one can see obvious benefits for ensuring some kind of proficiency in English for all non-national residents, it really isn’t necessary, it would however be beneficial to Ireland’s heritage to force non-national’s to take Irish general knowledge tests similar to those used by the US in their citizenship tests. Such tests have resulted in better national general knowledge than that possessed by nationals.
Nice posting MacKozer. I’d speculate that this guy is a media whore, looking for free publicity for his magazine. Or alternatively he just drank too much Liffey water last weekend and it’s having an adverse affect on his ability to think logically.
If he wants to do his fellow Poles a service he could include a weekly lesson in English in his magazine (like Gazeta Wyborcza do here in their Job Supplement) or start a campaign to try get subsidised lessons in English for those in minority ethnic groups that need them and want to further their understanding.
Their has indeed being a remarkable Polonisation of certain areas of Ireland as regards newspapers/magazines, shops, pubs, etc. and well this is to be expected really. It can be advantageous in that Irish people can learn a lot about Polish culture from their work colleagues, neighbourhood bars, etc. and they may even decide to take up Polish lessons (like I did in Trinity college).
But it certainly can become dangerous if, as you said, the walls of the ghetto get higher. Let’s hope this guy stops drinking Liffey water.
Yes.
Let’s leave it at The Slavic Bar (Salthill) and The Czech Inn (Dublin)…
I welcome the diversity the emigrant community has brought to off licenses and now Dublin pubs (draft Staropramen! Thank you very much!!!)…
But the last thing Ireland needs is another language, Irish kids won’t bother to learn… We need grammar lessons not more national languages…
Yip, TUG is spot on. See, even I spelt ‘there’ as ‘their.’
It took us 800 years to learn English, good luck learning Polish.
I think there is a better argument for making Russian the third language since there are many people from Eastern Europe here with a common legacy of learning Russian in school.
There are also more German speakers in Europe than English, so it would make better sense to make this the second language over a regional language like Polish.
Chinese or Spanish would be the smart commercial move!!!
I seen the Irish Times quoted you in yesterday’s edition, Mac. It’s nice when the paper of record heeds your words.
They somehow managed to call the magazine Sofa instead of Sowa though! That made me giggle.
Primal, I guess I know that man personally - I know the owner of Sofa Magazine and his surname is Wrona, but he has different name.
As always, it is good to be quoted by leading Irish newspaper
A Chara,
I would love to see Polish as another national language BUT only if Irish is made an official language in Poland. The Poles must clearly understand that they can easily be replaced by other East Europeans and must not make demands. I have been many times to Poland and have see the double standards in Poland. So, dear Poles, you are welcome but please ask Mr. Kaczynski to amend your constitution to make Irish the second official language in Poland. I am a native speaker and will give free lessons to Poles in Poland and even help translate documents etc.
Is Mise.
Dochum Glóire Dé agus Onóra na hÉireann
If the Poles do not want to make Irish the second official language in Poland what about German? There is a considerable German minority in Poland and having German as the second official language would help them in their aim to reunite Silesia with Germany. Good luck to them in their endeavours to be reunited with their homeland.
Niall.
First of all, you seem not to know Polish reality so well. German minority in Poland is relatively small, but in the places where it is a majority of the citizens they can use German, go to the Middle Silesia near Opole, there is at least one bilingual town (with German name next to Polish, as well as the other official signs). Moreover German minority is represented in Polish parliament. They have 2 seats granted without any elections.
Mind, that no any Polish demanded seat in Dail
2nd. Poland is probably one of a few countries where you can learn Irish at University - Catholic University of Lublin has a Celtic languages department (or something like that).
I have mentioned couple of times on my blog that I really love Gaeilge (ad Scots Gaelic too), but even in Ireland is very hard to learn. So Niall, If your offer of free lessons is still valid, I am the first who is asking you for help in learning Irish.
and at the end… comparing Polish German relation is missing the point. Since after all what happened we don’t hate Germans, and we don’t make them problems in general (of course there are always people who hate somebody, but they are in every nation). While “Brits” in Ireland are still cursed, and my English friends had a lot of experiences like that.
Niall, let me know what about those Irish lessons. I am very interested.
Is mise le meas agus sonas ort
A Chara,
Ta suil agam go bhfuil tu i mbarr na slainte agus Coimhead fearg fhear na foighde.
(I hope you are fine but please be careful of the anger of a patient man).
I have been many many times to Poland. Since it was communist and I even speak pretty good Polish as I have a degree in East European languages. However this is not the point. People coming to Ireland are welcome but should not start making demands. Many Irish people are fed up with this as it will give a sudden explosive rise to radicals like we see in other countries e.g Flams Blok in Belgium, FPO in Austria, Republikaner in Germany, National Front in UK etc. These movements have been fuelled by immingrants demanding special treatment. We have enough of the Nigerians misusing the system in Ireland and taking our goodness for granted. One day the will see the other side of Ireland and run back to Nigeria. This is why the Irish did not make demands when they went abroad looking for work. The case with the German minirity in Poland is an example. Many of them feel no loyalty to Poland and dream of the day when they will reunite with Germany. I agree that they have political representation but they have tried to have German as an official language and this was turned down. I understand the reasons and agree 100% with them. If they like Germany then there is nothing stopping them from moving to Germany. In summary if someone does not like a place then they should find somewhere else where they feel better but not try to get the locals to change.
Slainte agus tainte.
Niall
It seems that you still missing the point, and maybe anger it the answer to that.
First. I haven’t noticed that Polish community in Ireland is marching through the Irish streets with the demands. The example I have described on my blog with my negative opinion (mind that I am Polish too) is not a common thing. People in Polish ghetto are not interested in making Ireland 2nd Poland officially. They just live behind the wall , cut off from Irish society, but it doesn’t mean that they are building another Poland in Ireland, at least not in general.
So at least we agree in one point. Such demands about language are completely stupid. That is why I - Polish emigrant - described it on my blog.
Second. We are all in EU, so.. we Poles, as well as other nationalities of the EU countries in Ireland (English, Spanish, Lithuanian etc) have our rights almost equal to the Irish. Working in Ireland we pay our taxes in Ireland, we pay our bills, more over… sometimes we are here not only because there is a bad economical situation in Poland, but also there is a lack of specialists in Ireland. Archaeologists are the good example… 90% of the staff on archaeological excavation sites in Ireland is non Irish, and not only Polish. Many of the site directors are Scottish, English etc. It is becasue of the lack of the specialists.
As for the Irish workers abroad. I am sorry to mention it. As far as I know During the massive Irish emigration to other countries or to US Irish never had such equal rights abroad as we do in Ireland at present, thus Irish had never chance to make their demands. I have experienced some of that kind of post-emigrant attitude from a few Irishmen.
Third. As you know, Poland is a member of EU, and Polish emigrants are coming to Ireland for work, not to settle down and live basing on the Social Welfare. Comparing us to the common opinion about Africans who are earn a living on grants from Social Welfare or other funding from Irish social help is missing the point again. Moreover, the general opinion about Nigerians is a bit racial and it is only another brick to the stereotype about racism in Ireland.
Anyway, don’t you see the difference or you just don’t want to see it?
As for the German as an official language. The answer is very simply - they are to small majority and only in the Middle Silesia the number of them is relatively big (10% of the population), thus one or couple of towns are bilingual.
There is also one interesting case. Many of those local Germans have Polish surnames. There is also a big amount of Poles with typical German surnames (Kajzer, Miler etc.). After 1000 years of living and fighting against each other, the population in some parts of Poland is rather mixed, and you can claim that you are both Polish and German, even if your grandad was fighting against Germany in 1939. For your information, I could also gain German nationality, since part of my family was also mixed and divided between both sides during WW2. I am Polish and I don’t need to change it for money and donations from EU.
And you are right - if the room is to hot for you, you are always allowed to leave. So if somebody doesn’t like Ireland, nobody stops him or her, however, as I wrote above, I haven’t see marches of unhappy Poles through Irish towns… and that means that most of them are more or less happy but cut off behind the walls of the Polish ghetto.
I hope you know that there is no offence in my comment.
Is mise
Isn’t Wrona’s first name Wojciech? There’s two versions
Anyway, whatever the first name - he’s a complete muppet, trying to make a career and get some free publicity on a controversial subject. The only problem with that is that he seems to have no grasp of potential consequences of spreading this nonsense outside his own four walls. One day someone will take him seriously and retaliate against the community, that doesn’t support the idea.
If Polish were to become an official language in Ireland, there’d be an even stronger argument to make Italian and Portuguese official languages in Luxembourg, where one third of the population is either Italian or Portuguese.
Regions of Spain could end up doing the same with English in Andalucia or German in Mallorca. The Spanish have enough problem with Brits who don’t want to learn to ’speak dago’ as it is!
B’fheidhir go bhfuil na Polanaigh ag foglam Gaeilge friesin, ní Béarla amhain. (Maybe the Poles should be learning Irish tto, not just English.)
Mackozer et al
It may be of some benefit to connect this conversation to Brian Friel’s play, Translations. I suspect the Irish readers of this lovely blog will likely have read or seen it, but others may not. His Philadelphia, Here I Come will also be useful.
The basic struggle we have with each “other” is for communication and understanding. So Mackozer resistance to building any more ghetto walls regardless of the archictect or workman should be well considered.
i think it would be stupid if ireland made polish an official language, why cant the polish learn english, if i was living in poland i would have to learn polish, they wouldent make english an official language
Is he for real? Oh my God.
What’s wrong with those people?
If he has problems understanding english, why is he here in the first place?
Just because they are now in the EU does not give them the right to come here and spout out such rubbish. Maybe he has a point though. I mean we are practically living in Eastern Europe anyway. It used to be great when you came home from a holiday abroad to feel like you were home again. Now all we get is a seemingly unending supply of dour eastern heads. Good God, it is like the USSR won and exoorted all these Warsaw Pact heads here. Let me out !!!!!!!!!!!
It disturbs me intensely to see the land of my anscestors going down the toliet. I thought us Irish were too tough and proud to let this happen. -an irish american.
To Colm: I don’t care you like it or not, but being in EU gives US right to come to IReland and to work, to pay our taxes etc. You are probably don’t know what is EU. Moreover you are expressing stereotypes. There is no more than about 150 thousands of Poles in Ireland, so it seems you have never been to Eastern Europe, and probably to Central Europe (since Poland is in the heart, geographical middle of the continent).
You are also seems having no knowledge about history comparing the situation to communistic regime. Read more historical books than express stereotypes.
TO The Mighty Quinn. Your comment made me laugh. American Irish… mighty patriot… who is living on the other side of the Ocean…
Especially when you express such stupid opinion based actually on stupid example.
Hi mackozer,
i last posted in July when you stated approx 300 000 poles in ireland. Now the figure is down to less than 150 000. hopefully the trend will continue. While I have no objection to anybody coming to ireland to work, I do have a problem with large numbers, I am tired of ordering a brown scone and getting a doughnut, tired of getting dumb looks when you ask a shop assistant a question, tired of these integration policies. In my town, there are no Polish people joined to any Gaelic Football, Hurling, Soccer, Rugby oe Athletic clubs. I am tired of signs in shops, schools, etc in Polish. A lot of us Irish fell like aliens in our own country. I have a good friend who is Polish and even he is getting tired of the Polish not making any effort to integrate. Again I must stress I am not against the Polish people but I am just tired of listening to a foreign language every time I shop, commute, socialise………….
Rodger… I agree.. as you can read on my blog I am of the opinion that lack of integration efforts from Polish side will turn Irish people against them.
Don’t worry about me… I’ll do everything in my power and knowledge to destroy the walls between Ireland and Poland. I’m second year here in Dublin and I feel no lack of integration. I do my best, even when the Irish lads try laugh about my efforts behind my back. Well I could do the same with plenty other polish friends….but what’s the point? There is no other country in Europe like Poland & Ireland which has so much in common. Germany hired thousands people from Turkey in early ‘50. They still there building own strong community and ghettos. We hate Germans the same way you hate Brits. But we all speak English, don’t you all think would be a compromise to learn more Irish & Polish instead of english or german ? - these simple languages.
Hi,
The presence of polish (and other nationalities) is not question of someones likes or dislikes. It’s a part of the global trend and an enormous boost for irish economy at the same time. Rodger does not want
clueless migrants to serve him food. Maybe he should ask himself - why are there no irish workers to to this job? Poles are doing this dirty small-time jobs, because there are no irish to do them in the first place. If Rodger wants to blame somebody/something for the state of affairs in his country - maybe he should blame Celtic Tiger.
I completely agree with you. They made this mistake with spanish language in United States where I live right now. Maybe its not official language so far, but most of offices, stores and advertisement use both languages. Very often I cannot communicate in the store (with latin employees) because majority of latin community in US dont speak and dont want to learn English. By the way if I wanted to speak Polish I would go back to Poland.
Reading these posts is a bit worrying because it takes just one stupid person to create nationalistic feelings in everyone else.
First of all, to The Mighty Quinn, the land of your ancestors was down the toilet and that’s why your ancestors left it, and it remained down the toilet until 15 years ago. I don’t know what kind of romanticised crap you were fed by your ancestors, but no doubt all our problems were due to the British and not of our own making.
To all those Irish who seem to think we are doing Poland a favour, WAKE UP!
Our population is too small to keep you in the wealth we have become accustomed to. Before the Polish came, Mary Harney, then Minister for trade and employment, travelled the world trying to persuade Irish emigrants to come home with very limited success. She also tried to encourage other nationalities to come here. When Poland and other eastern countries joined the EU in 2004, most EU countries did not give them work permits. Ireland did, not out of charity, but because we needed them so badly. Other EU countries would have done the same if they had rapidly growing economies like our own.
And to the Polish, with the exception of Mackozer, Peter/Piotr and similar open mineded Poles, don’t you realise you are insulting Irish people by building ghettos and thereby creating bad feeling.
Polish friends of mine who have been here for three years now, always comment on how friendly Irish people were when they first came here and how that friendliness is mostly gone now. But, they don’t blame the Irish, they blame Polish for not showing the same friendliness in return. I remember 2004 and how positive most Irish were about the arriving Poles. We genuinely beleved we shared a lot in common.
I can count myself as one of those Irish who have become disillusioned with most Polish people. My best friend has a lot of house parties which would be 60% Polish and 40% Irish and other nationalities. It is frustrating for her that Polish at these parties have little or no interest in talking to any other nationality. Although nearly all speak good English, they do not seem to have the same desire as other nationalities to speak it and improve it. I’m not sure why this is. So often I try to talk to someone and before I know it others join us and the language is switched to Polish. Then, I feel like an unwanted foreigner in my own country.
But that is not the worst of it. She is often critisized by her Polish friends for being to friendly with Irish people. Apparently, we may be wealthier than Polish people generally, but we are seen as having an inferior culture. Of course this is rubbish, and when I am oftened asked if there are any famous Irish people apart from U2, and I reply with many names, I always get the same reponse, “I thought there were British” which of course is the worst insult imaginable.
My point with all of this is that we all need to take a good look at ourselves.
Ireland needs Polish. Ireland was not a better place 20 years ago. And the Polish need to learn “When in Rome, do as the Romans do”
There are many positive things we can learn from each other. On my many visits to Poland I have seen ways of doing things that could improve Ireland greatly. I have also learned a lot from Polish friends and I know they have learned from me.
So why can’t we all oen our minds and be nice to each other.
It takes a short time to learn English compared to learning Hiberno English! a whole different kettle a fish like. If Polish became a national language in Ireland i think it would damage Irish and Polish relations beyond repair. Shame on Wrona for pointing out our differences rather than our similarities. Besides that, Krystian you are still the only Polish person i have met who spoke to me in Irish. Am still in awe of that.
Eddie Staunton (Heritage studies student)
Go Raibh maith agat Eddie!
and you are right, and I am afraid in some points they are damaged already due to the almost completely cut of of Polish community. Many of us are still in Poland. They are in Ireland only 8 h/day. Then they do shopping in Polish shops, drink Polish beer at home and watching Polish tele. That is the big problem and integration issue.
My Irish friend, my house mate got into trouble with two other Poles that used to share the house with us and finally he kicked them out. He joked “we have a no Polish zone now, and you are almost Irish”. It was a joke, but from the other side - most of my friends in Carlow are Irish or Spanish, and as you said I can speak Irish a little.
apart of that… ta me Pollanach
Sometimes I think that the strongest link between the Irish and Polish, is that we are two very similar peoples who have been the victims of cultures partly constructed for the purposes of Nationalism!.
What makes me feel Irish is my learned belief to discriminate ONLY between good and bad people, to be subjective.
I refuse to acknowledge the differences between us, and will fight my case with anbody who insists on the difference.
Is mise le meas
Edd
Hi Krystian!
First of all I want to congratulate You for this blog. Design, layout and everything else encourages you to take a look at it and forces you to stay a bit longer
Keep up the good work!
I’ve been reading that article and posts on that for nearly an hour now. It’s good to have straight, bright answers on both sides. Some are more intelligent and open-minded, some … on the contrary.
As for the idea of introducing Polish as the 3rd offical language - IMO, I don’t know how stupid you have to be to even think of that! I won’t be explaining much further, because there’s just no point in doing that. That’s a shame idea, and no Irish should consider that kind of “news” as truly intended by all the Poles in Ireland
In my post I’d like to ask a different question. One to Krystian, and one to Rodger.
Krystian - don’t You think that the ghetto ideas is not the only reason why Polish don’t integrate so easily? You know yourself that polish beer, friends and shopping is just one side of the story. The secound would be - it’s sad to write about that (and those are just mine observations)… but - many Irish (of course not all!) don’t want to have anything to do with foreigners, except work. I mean, their groups are closed to any non-national friends.
Rodger - You wrote: “I am just tired of listening to a foreign language every time I shop, commute, socialise”.
That is really sad. Hence Im in Ireland You require from me to speak only English to my friends, in shops, whatever? It’s not so simple as You would think it is! I have to tell You that because of that kind of attitude and way of thinking I’ve stopped going out, entirely.
Would You kindly try to imagine that kind of situation - You’re going out with Your friend (Irish) while in Poland, and try to speak polish (even if You know it very well)? No, You’ll stay onto English, and nobody would give a damn thing about it!
Some months ago my girlfriend went for a beer with her friend. They have been speaking polish, not too loud, just between themselves, the pub was O’Loughlins. They went outside for a ciggy, and then some drunk irish lad approached them and started to ask them: “What kind of fxxx language is that? Why don’t You speak English? I don’t understand anything!”. She responded that it was none of his business. So he said: “fxxx off u fxxx foreigners, Im changing a pub, what happened to Ireland?”. Poor lad.
So Rodger would You kindly explain to me that kind of behaviour? We work here, pay taxes, bills, and help to grow Your businesses, but we can’t even use our native language while socialising, because somebody can approach use and hit us with the face or do stupid remarks? Unfortunately more and more people start to think in that way.
I agree with John - “When in Rome…”, but that doesn’t mean that I have to loose my identity, and to be afraid of using my native language while, for instance - doing shopping.
Best regards to all, and Krystian - once again let me say great work You did!
Kruku, Thanks!
That is right, and it is not only our fault. I have mentioned it in one of the older entries. Many Irish people keep away those of us who want to integrate.
Good example is Nenagh. For a couple of months I was a regular visitor to one of the pubs. Irish men and women known me, but they didn’t socialize with me at all. They didn’t make any problems neighter.
true we dont need another language but statistics hav shown the next big language is chinese .the irish r mayb blind 2 the chinese. the the majority of the poles will return home as an wen there economic system grows which it is doing .but no the chinese wont go bac they r here 2 stay .let the poles role as they r the people we will b lookin 2 work with they were an still r 1 of our greatast assets .un2 then good luc 2 them
English serves only as a “traffic language” for the European Union. The British and the Irish do not learn other European languages - and yet they belong to the European Union! They demand that everyone in continental Europe speak English without learning any languages themselves. This does not make any sense….
Learn the language of Ireland, you Poles, speak Gaelic!! :-p
And what would the Polish people find in Poland if (or when) they return from Britain/Ireland. The Poles did not come to Ireland for holiday!!!